I was watching PBS documentary Behind Closed doors. According to that documentary Churchill and Roosevelt were not really sure if Stalin really understood about 'the new kind of weapon' when they mentioned it to him during Yalta conference since Stalin's only response was 'Ok. Thank your for letting me know'. But Stalin apparently knew all about it through extensive Soviet espionage in the Manhattan project. My question is how were America and Britain so clueless about soviet espionage?
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1So you received The Last Lion - Defender of the Realm for Christmas also. I just read that very line last night myself.– Pieter GeerkensCommented Dec 31, 2013 at 0:00
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3Stalin knew precisely because the U.S. was unaware of the Soviet espionage. As would come to light in the '60's and '70's, The British intelligence community was chock-full of Soviet spies.– Pieter GeerkensCommented Dec 31, 2013 at 0:03
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4The whole point of espionage is that the one spied upon doesn't know about it. The US didn't know, because the Soviet spies succeeded.– Lennart RegebroCommented Dec 31, 2013 at 3:53
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@LennartRegebro one may know one is being spied upon without knowing who the spies are or what information they are getting away with.– jwentingCommented Jan 2, 2014 at 5:37
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@jwenting Sure. But in that situation it's hard to do anything about it.– Lennart RegebroCommented Jan 2, 2014 at 6:09
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3 Answers
The Western allies were not clueless about the Soviet espionage. However, they could not prevent it and were probably underestimating its extent.
The reason they were unable to prevent it is manifold.
The nature of science (and the Manhattan project was much more an open-ended research enterprise than a typical modern-style DARPA project) as understood by the luminaries taking part is openness, not secrecy, so things like "need to know"/compartmentalization were anathema to the participants.
Despite plenty of evidence of its repressive and murderous nature, the Soviet Union and the Communist idea still commanded much sympathy (additionally fueled by the role the Red Army played in the WW2 after 1941).
Some scientists worried about what the West might do with nuclear monopoly.
The reason they informed Stalin officially about the bomb (despite being aware of his espionage) was to bring its shadow to the negotiating table (i.e., making sure that Stalin knew that they knew that he knew about the bomb). The problem the West was facing was that, as the war was winding down, Stalin paid less and less attention to the promises he made about non-intervention in the Polish politics et al since he needed the Lend-Lease less.
Stalin pretended not to understand the importance of the news: he rightly judged that so soon after the war the Western public will not accept an open confrontation with the erstwhile ally, and, indeed, the Western leaders did not press him.
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3and also: a lot of the people involved in the project were left wing sympathisers who would, had this been 10 years later, never have received a security clearance, let alone one for a nuclear facility. And that included many of those responsible for security and counter espionage.– jwentingCommented Jan 2, 2014 at 5:40
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@jwenting +1 for the first part. But can you give examples for the second part? Commented Jan 2, 2014 at 11:08
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@FelixGoldberg many of the people working at Los Alamos later came under investigation by the anti-American activities investigations of congress (both houses ran such investigations), as well as the FBI, and were found to have been Soviet or Chinese agents or have contact with Soviet or Chinese agents. At that time, such investigations were becoming routine for people to get a security clearance, and would have excluded them.– jwentingCommented Jan 3, 2014 at 17:19
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1@jwenting Yes, but what I meant is: can you give exmaples of Los Alamos security personnel (as opposed to scientists/technicians) who turned out to have been Soviet agents? Commented Jan 3, 2014 at 23:13
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1@James They would not have given the people security clearances who ended up being spies for the USSR. What effect that'd have had on the progress of the project is anybody's guess, the US would likely have found other people who could develop a nuclear weapon, the knowledge was out there after all for scientists and engineers to use, but whether they'd have succeeded in the timeframe the Manhattan project took is open to speculation.– jwentingCommented Sep 14, 2016 at 12:45
In general, the only successful espionage is the espionage about which the target is ignorant. There is a term for espionage where the target becomes aware the term is "failed".
Kind of like asking why the recipient didn't know about the suprise birthday party; if they know, it isn't a surprise.
Now if your real intent is to ask how the Soviets successfully penetrated the Allied weapons effort, that is somewhat more interesting, but it is definitely a book length answer.
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4-1 I am afraid. Isn't that a bit too categorical? If you are aware that you are being spied on but do not realized the full extent, then it is still rather successful. Commented Jan 2, 2014 at 11:10
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True. Analysis of any adversarial relationship quickly becomes unmanageably complex. I chose to ignore partial discovery, full discovery with disinformation, maskirovka and other complications. Trying to cover those would have extended the answer to an unacceptable length, and there was no evidence that OP was looking for that kind of analysis.– MCW ♦Commented Jan 2, 2014 at 11:39
Why did America not know about Soviet espionage in manhattan project
A lend lease expediter stationed in Montana named Major Jordan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Racey_Jordan ) kept a journal documenting much of the material that was shipped to the USSR.
It seems obvious that at the direction of the executive office the plans and material to make an atomic bomb were given to the Soviet Union.
At the time only Germany and Japan were considered enemies.
Also at the time most considered the atomic bomb just a big bomb as opposed to something horrible.
Soviet espionage as reported by Whittaker Chambers to presidential "brain truster" Adolf Berle. Berle was not only ignored by FDR but Berle was told "Oh, forget it, Adolf." by FDR.
The question remains regarding FDR as to if he was a dupe, pro-Soviet, or being coerced such as with blackmail.
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2This seems to cross the line between "informative" and "argumentative", and I don't think it actually answers the question.– MCW ♦Commented Dec 16, 2014 at 20:41
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1. "America" did not know about the project so it should not be expected that it would know about espionage. 2. Some officials knew about Soviet espionage but were unable to interest FDR. 3. The FBI was relatively new and did detect and report some espionage. 4. Soviet espionage about the Manhattan project was not considered much of a threat as we had given them the information and material anyway.– timfCommented Dec 16, 2014 at 20:55