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In this Wikipedia page about the Holy Roman Emperors, it is stated that emperor Henry VII (1275-1313) is a far descendant of emperor Louis III (880-928).

What is the list of people that make the link between these two emperors ?

  • user40085 - I have added another alleged but uncertain descent from Louis III to Henry VII to my answer on 05-25/26-2017. – MAGolding May 26 '17 at 5:03
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The short answer is yes a little research can trace the ancestry of Emperor Henry VII back to Emperor Louis III, but to accept that lineage you have to overlook the doubt about the ancestry of one woman in the lineage. And yes Emperor Henry VII has many other descents from members of the Carolingian Dynasty.

Here you see that Carolingian Emperor Louis II, brother of King Lothaire II, left one daughter that married and had children:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ITALY,%20Kings%20to%20962.htm#LouisIIEmperorItalydied875

And here it lists his grandson Louis III (882 or later to 928) the Blind, King of Provence 890, king of Italy 900, Emperor 901, deposed in Italy 905.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#BosonKingProvencedied887B1

Louis III had a son Charles or Charles Constantine of Vienne. Who in turn had children. It is possible that there could be descendants of those children.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#BosonIIArlesdied965B2

To find a descent from Emperor Louis III the best bet would be a descent from a Capetian King of France.

This chart shows the ancestors of Emperor Henry VII back to great great grandparents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII,_Holy_Roman_Emperor#Ancestry3

Emperor Henry VII's great great grandfather Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople married Marie of Champagne, the mother of his daughter Margaret. Marie of Champagne was the daughter of Count Henry I of Champagne and Marie of France, daughter of King Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine. Louis VII was the son of Louis VI, who was the son of Philip I, who was the son of Henry I, who was the Son of Robert II and Constance of Arles. Constance of Arles was the daughter of Count William I of Provence, who was the son of Boso II and Constance.

Who was this earlier Constance? Who indeed.

Some sources say that Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne, son of Emperor Louis III, had a daughter Constance (920/30-963) that married Boson Count of Avignon. Boson Count of Avignon seems to be the same person as Boso II above.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#LouisKingProvencedied9284

Boson and Constance's son William II (955?-993) was the father of Constance (987/89-1032) wife of Robert II of France.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#GuillaumeIIArlesProvencedied9935

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#GuillaumeIIArlesProvencedied9935

But medieval Lands makes it quite clear that the ancestry of Constance wife of Boson, grandmother of Constance of Arles, is unknown.

Thus anyone who overlooks the uncertainty about the ancestry of that Constance can claim that Emperor Henry VII was descended from Emperor Louis III.


Added 05-25-2017.

I have found another alleged Descent from Emperor Louis III to Emperor Henry VII but it also has one or two uncertain identifications.

Emperor Louis III (882-928) Son of Ermengarids and Boso. King of Provence 890. King of Italy 990. Crowned Emperor 901. Captured and blinded by Berenger in 905. Louis continued to reign in Provence, but Count Hugh of Arles ruled. Louis was betrothed in 900 to Anna, Daughter of Emperor Leo VI, and perhaps married her. Louis married 902/05 Adelais. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter9626

Charles or Charles Constantine (905/10-962) Count of Vienne. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter9626

Richard (d. 962 or later). Son. Childless?http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter9626

Hubert. (died 962 or later) Brother, son of Charles Constantine. Possibly identical with Humbert Count of Belley. In turn Humbert Count of Belley might possibly have been the material uncle of the ancestor of the Counts of Savoy. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter9626 http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter9957

Adelais sister of Humbert Count of Belley and thus possible daughter of Charles Constantine. Possible mother of Humbert I Count of Maurienne and Chablis, ancestor of the Counts of Savoy. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter9957

So we will trace the heirs of the Counts of Savoy as possible heirs of the Carolingian emperors.

Humbert (970/75-1047/51) Possible descendant of Charles Constantine. Ancestor of Counts of Savoy. Count of Maurienne and Chablis. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter9957 http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#HumbertIdied10471051A8

Amedee (995/1000?-1051) Son. Amadeus I Count of Maurienne and Chablis. No surviving children. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIdied104710519

Burchard (995/1000?-1068) Younger brother. Archbishop of Lyon. Childless. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIdied104710519

[Odo (1017?-1060) Younger brother. Count of Maurienne and Chablis 1051, Margrave of Susa] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060A10

Count Peter I of Savoy (1047/49-1078) Margrave of Susa. Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060A10

Amadeus II Count of Savoy Margrave of Susa. (1048/50-1080) Brother. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060B11

Count Humbert II of Savoy (1072-1103) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060B11

Adelaide (1092?-1154) daughter. Married King Louis VI (1081-1137) the Fat of France.[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIIdied1103B12http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIdied1137B13

Louis VII (1120-1180) King of France. Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIIdied1180B14

Marie of France (1145-1198) daughter. Married Henry I (1126-1181) Count of champagne.http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIIdied1180B14

Empress Marie (1174?-1204) Daughter. Married future Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople (1171-1205). http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm#HenriIChampagnedied1181B15

Margaret II (1202-1280) Countess of Flanders and Hainaut. Daughter. Married first Bouchard d'Avesnes (1180?-1244). http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLANDERS,%20HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinIXdied1205B16

Baldwin of Avesnes (1219-1295) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BouchardAvesnesdied1244B17

Beatrix d'Avenes (d. 1321) daughter. Married Count Henry VI of Luxemburg (1250?-1288) http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BouchardAvesnesdied1244B17

Emperor Henry VII (1274-1313) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LUXEMBOURG.htm#HeinrichVIIGermanydied131318

See also post number 36 here: http://historum.com/european-history/123117-heirs-holy-roman-emperors-4.html19

Bu this all depends on if Hubert son of Charles Constantine is the same person as Humbert Count of Belley and if the sister of Humbert Count of Belley was the mother of Humbert Count of Maurienne and Chablis, ancestor of the Counts of Savoy.

Return to original post.

It is possible that any descent from any Carolingian, not merely Emperor Louis III, would suffice to satisfy the original question,

As you can see by looking at the ancestor chart of Emperor Henry VII, most of his ancestors came from the Benelux countries or neighboring regions of France and Germany. The Counts of Louvain and later the Dukes of Brabant, heirs of the Carolingian Kings of France, intermarried with noble families in that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII,_Holy_Roman_Emperor#Ancestry3

Charlemagne, King of the Franks and Lombards and "Great Peaceful Emperor Governing the Roman Empire", was the father of Emperor Louis I, whose sons included Charles II the Bald, King of the west Franks (or of France) and Emperor, father of Kin gLouis II the Stammmerer, father of King Charles III the Simple, father of King Louis IV from Overseas, father of (his younger son) Duke Charles (953-991) of Lorraine, rightful heir of France.

Duke Charles of Lotharingia/Lorraine was the father of Gerberga (975?-after 1018) who married Lambert I Count of Louvain.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LOTHARINGIA.htm#CharlesdukeLowerLothringiadied99120

Gerberga and Lambert I were the parents of Lambert II Count of Louvain.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BRABANT,%20LOUVAIN.htm#LambertILouvaindied101521

Lambert II, Count of Louvain (died 1062) had a son Henry II, Count of Louvain.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BRABANT,%20LOUVAIN.htm#LambertILouvaindied101521

Henry II, Count of Louvain (died c. 1078) had a daughter Ida who married Baldwin II of Hainaut.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BRABANT,%20LOUVAIN.htm#_Toc44081109522

Their children included Baldwin III, Count of Hainaut, father of Baldwin IV, father of Baldwin V.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinIVHainautdied1171B23

Baldwin V was the father of Baldwin VI who became Latin Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople in 1204.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinVHainautB24

Emperor Baldwin's daughter Countess Margaret II was the mother of Baldwin of Avesnes who was the father of Beatrice of Avesnes, the mother of Emperor Henry VII. So I was able to find one of Emperor Henry VII's no doubt many descents from the Carolingians in just a few minutes of online research.

Emperor Henry VII was also son of Count Henry VI of Luxemburg, son of Margaret of Bar, daughter of Philippa of Dreux, daughter of Count Robert II of Dreux and Yolanda of Coucy. Yolande of Coucy (died 1222) was the daughter of Raoul of Coucy and Agnes of Hainaut.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm#YolandeCoucydied122225

Agnes of Hainaut was the daughter of Baldwin IV, the son of Baldwin III, the son of Baldwin II and Ida of Louvain, one of the children of Count Henry II of Louvain, descendant of the Carolingian kings of France.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BRABANT,%20LOUVAIN.htm#IdaLouvaindied113926

So a few minutes of research finds another descent from the Carolingians.

By an interesting coincidence I have recently been investigating a pedigree claiming that Emperor Henry VII and his Luxemburg Dynasty was the heir of the Ottonian Dynasty and the Ottonian Dynasty could be considered the heir of the Carolingian Dynasty. But descended from Emperor Lothaire I's son King Lothaire II of Lotharingia instead of Emperor Louis III.

Look for "The Carolingian Legacy" here:

http://my.raex.com/~obsidian/pretends.html1

Posts number 12 and number 14 in this thread in Historum discusses the alleged heirship of Emperor Henry VII.

http://historum.com/european-history/123117-heirs-holy-roman-emperors-2.html

In it I conclude that Emperor Henry VII was not the senior heir of the Saffenberg counts, and that I have not yet found any genealogical link between his Saffenberg ancestors and the descendants of Emperor Otto II.

It is my opinion that since for almost five hundred years the head of the Hohenzollern Dynasty was the rightful heir of the Kings and Emperors of Emperor Henry VII's Luxemburg Dynasty, some supporter of the Hohenzollerns decided to make their ancestry even better by digging up or inventing genealogical links that made them the allegedly rightful heirs of the earlier Carolingian and Ottonian Dynasties.

.............................................................................

  • I agree that there are several ways to link Henry VII to the Carolingians. The question is about Louis III precisely. In summary, if I understand your answer, all boils down to this uncertain daughter Constance of Charles-Constantine ? – Antoine Mar 24 '17 at 10:06
  • user40085 - yes, it all boils down to Charles-Constantine's uncertain daughter Constance. Medieval Lands doen't list any children of his two sons, so there proabably aren't any plausible statements that they had children. This makes teh doubtful Constance the best chance for anyone to be descended from Louis III. – MAGolding Mar 24 '17 at 16:03
  • user40085 - Emperor Louis III had up to three alleged sisters. But there seems to be an inverse relationship between the probability of them actually being his sisters and the probability of them having descendants to this day. Louis III's mother was the only child of Emperor Louis II. Louis II's brother Lothair II might have been an ancestor through females of the Ottonian Emperors, and Louis II & Lothair II had an unnamed sister who was the ancestress of the counts of Louvain. – MAGolding Mar 24 '17 at 16:34
  • User 40085 - I have just found and added to my answer.another alleged descent from Charles Constantine son of Emperor Louis III to Emperor Henry VII. But it also involves some uncertain identifications.. – MAGolding May 26 '17 at 4:47
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I have found another alleged Descent from Emperor Louis III to Emperor Henry VII but it also has one or two uncertain identifications.

Emperor Louis III (882-928) Son of Ermengarids and Boso. King of Provence 890. King of Italy 990. Crowned Emperor 901. Captured and blinded by Berenger in 905. Louis continued to reign in Provence, but Count Hugh of Arles ruled. Louis was betrothed in 900 to Anna, Daughter of Emperor Leo VI, and perhaps married her. Louis married 902/05 Adelais. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter962[6]

Charles or Charles Constantine (905/10-962) Count of Vienne. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter962[6]

Richard (d. 962 or later). Son. Childless?http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter962[6]

Hubert. (died 962 or later) Brother, son of Charles Constantine. Possibly identical with Humbert Count of Belley. In turn Humbert Count of Belley might possibly have been the material uncle of the ancestor of the Counts of Savoy. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#HubertViennediedafter962[6] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter995[7]

Adelais sister of Humbert Count of Belley and thus possible daughter of Charles Constantine. Possible mother of Humbert I Count of Maurienne and Chablis, ancestor of the Counts of Savoy. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter995[7]

So we will trace the heirs of the Counts of Savoy as possible heirs of the Carolingian emperors.

Humbert (970/75-1047/51) Possible descendant of Charles Constantine. Ancestor of Counts of Savoy. Count of Maurienne and Chablis. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#Humbertdiedafter995[7] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/burgkbresse.htm#HumbertIdied10471051A[8]

Amedee (995/1000?-1051) Son. Amadeus I Count of Maurienne and Chablis. No surviving children. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIdied10471051[9]

Burchard (995/1000?-1068) Younger brother. Archbishop of Lyon. Childless. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIdied10471051[9]

[Odo (1017?-1060) Younger brother. Count of Maurienne and Chablis 1051, Margrave of Susa] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060A[10]

Count Peter I of Savoy (1047/49-1078) Margrave of Susa. Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060A[10]

Amadeus II Count of Savoy Margrave of Susa. (1048/50-1080) Brother. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060B[11]

Count Humbert II of Savoy (1072-1103) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#Oddondied1060B[11]

Adelaide (1092?-1154) daughter. Married King Louis VI (1081-1137) the Fat of France.[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#HumbertIIdied1103B[12]http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIdied1137B[13]

Louis VII (1120-1180) King of France. Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIIdied1180B[14]

Marie of France (1145-1198) daughter. Married Henry I (1126-1181) Count of champagne.http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#LouisVIIdied1180B[14]

Empress Marie (1174?-1204) Daughter. Married future Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople (1171-1205). http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm#HenriIChampagnedied1181B[15]

Margaret II (1202-1280) Countess of Flanders and Hainaut. Daughter. Married first Bouchard d'Avesnes (1180?-1244). http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLANDERS,%20HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinIXdied1205B[16]

Baldwin of Avesnes (1219-1295) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BouchardAvesnesdied1244B[17]

Beatrix d'Avenes (d. 1321) daughter. Married Count Henry VI of Luxemburg (1250?-1288) http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HAINAUT.htm#BouchardAvesnesdied1244B[17]

Emperor Henry VII (1274-1313) Son. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LUXEMBOURG.htm#HeinrichVIIGermanydied1313[18]

See also post number 36 here: http://historum.com/european-history/123117-heirs-holy-roman-emperors-4.html[19]

Bu this all depends on if Hubert son of Charles Constantine is the same person as Humbert Count of Belley and if the sister of Humbert Count of Belley was the mother of Humbert Count of Maurienne and Chablis, ancestor of the Counts of Savoy.

-1

The almost 400 years between the 2 emperors translates to more than 10 generations and many different lines of ancestors that would need to be investigated. Since intermarriage of noble families was common, if the assertion (that there IS a relationship) is true, there is almost certainly more than one valid path between these men. Check out the various royal genealogies on the internet to follow Henry's pedigree until each line reaches either a brickwall (end-point) or a point past the year 880 (a tedious process, even without doing the basic research into the records yourself).

Example Henry,VII,Count Of /Luxembourg,Holy Roman Emperor/

Beware, however, that there will errors and leaps of faith in some of these genealogies, and that they don't all agree at all points.

  • My problem is that according to Wikipedia, Louis III has only one known son, called Charles-Constantine (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Constantine_of_Vienne) (and no daughter). The latter has two sons, about whom nothing seems to be known. Given that state of affairs, I don't see how I can find any path. – Antoine Mar 23 '17 at 19:57
  • @user40085 - Going the other way, it wasn't too tough to trace Henry VII's ancestry back to French nobility though, with several generations to spare (although I had to go through a couple of maternal links). From there it seems fairly likely there might have been some kind of connection. – T.E.D. Mar 23 '17 at 20:19
  • User40885 - you problem with finding a descent from Louis III and Charles Constantine is that Wikipedia is too truthful to list an actual ancestress of Emperor Henry VIII as the alleged daughter of Charles Constantine. See my answer. – MAGolding Mar 24 '17 at 5:26
  • I have found another descent from Charles Constantine to Henry VII, but it also involves uncertain identifications. – MAGolding May 26 '17 at 5:22

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